Discussion:
[Kexi] Linux Voice review, Kexi wins in the Databases category
Jaroslaw Staniek
2015-12-13 23:55:42 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
December 7: Linux Voice review, Calligra included.
Kexi wins in the Databases category:

http://www.linuxvoice.com/group-test-office-suites
--
regards, Jaroslaw Staniek

KDE:
: A world-wide network of software engineers, artists, writers, translators
: and facilitators committed to Free Software development - http://kde.org
Calligra Suite:
: A graphic art and office suite - http://calligra.org
Kexi:
: A visual database apps builder - http://calligra.org/kexi
Qt Certified Specialist:
: http://www.linkedin.com/in/jstaniek
c***@isbd.net
2015-12-14 11:32:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jaroslaw Staniek
Hi,
December 7: Linux Voice review, Calligra included.
http://www.linuxvoice.com/group-test-office-suites
Hmm, I'd hardly say it wins. After saying that they weren't sure that
the 'desktop database' is a good idea in general they said:-

"This leaves graphical database tools with a very small target
audience. Should you find yourself a member of this exclusive group,
we’d recommend Kexi, but only marginally."
--
Chris Green
·
Jaroslaw Staniek
2015-12-14 11:54:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@isbd.net
Post by Jaroslaw Staniek
Hi,
December 7: Linux Voice review, Calligra included.
http://www.linuxvoice.com/group-test-office-suites
Hmm, I'd hardly say it wins. After saying that they weren't sure that
the 'desktop database' is a good idea in general they said:-
"This leaves graphical database tools with a very small target
audience. Should you find yourself a member of this exclusive group,
we’d recommend Kexi, but only marginally."
Yes, marginally. The margin related to (maybe) being able to run the
app without a Java runtime.

The exclusive group or RAD users is not small but severely distributed
so quite hard to reach. Misused spreadsheets for example are
competitors too. There's always room for IT projects without any
reasonable budget assigned.

PS: And I am unsure why would the LV claim there's no client-server
architecture in such RAD tools if all database engines (but SQLite)
have always been client-server. Maybe it's about the app and GUI on
the server side?

BR
Post by c***@isbd.net
Chris Green
·
_______________________________________________
Kexi mailing list
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kexi
--
regards, Jaroslaw Staniek

KDE:
: A world-wide network of software engineers, artists, writers, translators
: and facilitators committed to Free Software development - http://kde.org
Calligra Suite:
: A graphic art and office suite - http://calligra.org
Kexi:
: A visual database apps builder - http://calligra.org/kexi
Qt Certified Specialist:
: http://www.linkedin.com/in/jstaniek
c***@isbd.net
2015-12-14 12:13:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jaroslaw Staniek
The exclusive group or RAD users is not small but severely distributed
so quite hard to reach. Misused spreadsheets for example are
competitors too. There's always room for IT projects without any
reasonable budget assigned.
Yes, that's my pet hate, people using spreadsheets for storing tables
of text information. :-)
Post by Jaroslaw Staniek
PS: And I am unsure why would the LV claim there's no client-server
architecture in such RAD tools if all database engines (but SQLite)
have always been client-server. Maybe it's about the app and GUI on
the server side?
A good, easy to use front-end (like Kexi may become or MS Access sort
of is) would encourage more use of databases.

I've been searching for a decent replacement for MS Access for ages
and still haven't found one.

My fundamental requirement is soemthing like Access' table view that
allows very simple creation and updating of a table. I've yet to find
anything.
--
Chris Green
·
Jaroslaw Staniek
2015-12-14 12:22:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@isbd.net
Post by Jaroslaw Staniek
The exclusive group or RAD users is not small but severely distributed
so quite hard to reach. Misused spreadsheets for example are
competitors too. There's always room for IT projects without any
reasonable budget assigned.
Yes, that's my pet hate, people using spreadsheets for storing tables
of text information. :-)
That triggered creation of this chapter of the handbook:
https://userbase.kde.org/Kexi/Handbook/Introduction_to_Databases/Database_and_Spreadsheet
Nothing revolutionary and can be further extended :)
Post by c***@isbd.net
Post by Jaroslaw Staniek
PS: And I am unsure why would the LV claim there's no client-server
architecture in such RAD tools if all database engines (but SQLite)
have always been client-server. Maybe it's about the app and GUI on
the server side?
A good, easy to use front-end (like Kexi may become or MS Access sort
of is) would encourage more use of databases.
I've been searching for a decent replacement for MS Access for ages
and still haven't found one.
My fundamental requirement is soemthing like Access' table view that
allows very simple creation and updating of a table. I've yet to find
anything.
Yes, sometimes I am looking into ways to make Kexi even simpler to
use, so if user wants it - it can be in the middle between a
spreadsheet and a db creation app. Ad-hoc creating table designs
(while entering the data) is one of the things, quite hard to
implement though. Interesting, after the idea came MSA (maybe 2003?)
added similar feature.

But before it's reality we probably need to get reliable alter-table
feature to work.


What exact features of simple table creation do you mean?
Post by c***@isbd.net
--
Chris Green
·
_______________________________________________
Kexi mailing list
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kexi
--
regards, Jaroslaw Staniek

KDE:
: A world-wide network of software engineers, artists, writers, translators
: and facilitators committed to Free Software development - http://kde.org
Calligra Suite:
: A graphic art and office suite - http://calligra.org
Kexi:
: A visual database apps builder - http://calligra.org/kexi
Qt Certified Specialist:
: http://www.linkedin.com/in/jstaniek
Swarup
2015-12-14 12:48:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jaroslaw Staniek
Post by c***@isbd.net
Post by Jaroslaw Staniek
The exclusive group or RAD users is not small but severely distributed
so quite hard to reach. Misused spreadsheets for example are
competitors too. There's always room for IT projects without any
reasonable budget assigned.
Yes, that's my pet hate, people using spreadsheets for storing tables
of text information. :-)
https://userbase.kde.org/Kexi/Handbook/Introduction_to_Databases/Database_and_Spreadsheet
Nothing revolutionary and can be further extended :)
Post by c***@isbd.net
Post by Jaroslaw Staniek
PS: And I am unsure why would the LV claim there's no client-server
architecture in such RAD tools if all database engines (but SQLite)
have always been client-server. Maybe it's about the app and GUI on
the server side?
A good, easy to use front-end (like Kexi may become or MS Access sort
of is) would encourage more use of databases.
I've been searching for a decent replacement for MS Access for ages
and still haven't found one.
My fundamental requirement is soemthing like Access' table view that
allows very simple creation and updating of a table. I've yet to find
anything.
Yes, sometimes I am looking into ways to make Kexi even simpler to
use, so if user wants it - it can be in the middle between a
spreadsheet and a db creation app. Ad-hoc creating table designs
(while entering the data) is one of the things, quite hard to
implement though. Interesting, after the idea came MSA (maybe 2003?)
added similar feature.
But before it's reality we probably need to get reliable alter-table
feature to work.
What exact features of simple table creation do you mean?
I feel this middle ground between a spreadsheet and a db creation app is
incredibly important and will increase the value and use of Kexi among
the general linux user base exponentially. My estimation is the the
majority of potential Kexi users will be wanting it for this feature.
That is what a great number of Access users use Access for. These people
are not terribly technically inclined, and like the table format of
Access better than a spreadsheet format, for their purpose of storing
text-based data. I am one such person, and as a Linux user have been
using Kexi for this middle ground for several users-- although frankly
it is far from satisfactory compared with Access, due to lack of ability
to alter the configuration or appearance of a table after it has been
created.

So in short, I agree with you Chris, that for this middle ground between
a spreadsheet and a db creation app, what I think you mean by the
alter-table feature, is more important than the simple table creation.
Going into data view to make the initial table is no big deal. But after
the table is made, then on the fly the following features are I think
critically imporant:

1. Ability to create new rows and columns later on, in table view.
2. Ability to rename columns later on.
3. Ability to hide columns and rows in table view.
4. Ability to move columns in table view.
5. Ability to alter the number of characters allowed in a cell after the
table is made, without losing all the data.
6. Ability to highlight and copy the cells of limited number of rows and
columns, i.e. a sub-section of the table.

Some of these features may have already been implemented in your later
versions, as in Ubuntu I cannot upgrade to later versions (fixing this
is also incredibly needed). I am running version 2.8.5, although I would
love to be able to upgrade if there were a reasonable way to do so.

Swarup
Jaroslaw Staniek
2015-12-14 13:55:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jaroslaw Staniek
The exclusive group or RAD users is not small but severely distributed
so quite hard to reach. Misused spreadsheets for example are
competitors too. There's always room for IT projects without any
reasonable budget assigned.
Yes, that's my pet hate, people using spreadsheets for storing tables
of text information. :-)
https://userbase.kde.org/Kexi/Handbook/Introduction_to_Databases/Database_and_Spreadsheet
Nothing revolutionary and can be further extended :)
PS: And I am unsure why would the LV claim there's no client-server
architecture in such RAD tools if all database engines (but SQLite)
have always been client-server. Maybe it's about the app and GUI on
the server side?
A good, easy to use front-end (like Kexi may become or MS Access sort
of is) would encourage more use of databases.
I've been searching for a decent replacement for MS Access for ages
and still haven't found one.
My fundamental requirement is soemthing like Access' table view that
allows very simple creation and updating of a table. I've yet to find
anything.
Yes, sometimes I am looking into ways to make Kexi even simpler to
use, so if user wants it - it can be in the middle between a
spreadsheet and a db creation app. Ad-hoc creating table designs
(while entering the data) is one of the things, quite hard to
implement though. Interesting, after the idea came MSA (maybe 2003?)
added similar feature.
But before it's reality we probably need to get reliable alter-table
feature to work.
What exact features of simple table creation do you mean?
I feel this middle ground between a spreadsheet and a db creation app is
incredibly important and will increase the value and use of Kexi among the
general linux user base exponentially. My estimation is the the majority of
potential Kexi users will be wanting it for this feature. That is what a
great number of Access users use Access for. These people are not terribly
technically inclined, and like the table format of Access better than a
spreadsheet format, for their purpose of storing text-based data. I am one
such person, and as a Linux user have been using Kexi for this middle ground
for several users-- although frankly it is far from satisfactory compared
with Access, due to lack of ability to alter the configuration or appearance
of a table after it has been created.
Yes, that's a #1 wish from many people
[1] https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=125253
Post by Jaroslaw Staniek
So in short, I agree with you Chris, that for this middle ground between a
spreadsheet and a db creation app, what I think you mean by the alter-table
feature, is more important than the simple table creation. Going into data
view to make the initial table is no big deal. But after the table is made,
1. Ability to create new rows and columns later on, in table view.
2. Ability to rename columns later on.
3. Ability to hide columns and rows in table view.
4. Ability to move columns in table view.
5. Ability to alter the number of characters allowed in a cell after the
table is made, without losing all the data.
6. Ability to highlight and copy the cells of limited number of rows and
columns, i.e. a sub-section of the table.
Of course physically creating table from scratch based on data the
user entered is trivial. The points you listed are similar to the ones
in the [1] wish.
It's even known how to get there:
https://community.kde.org/Kexi/Plugins/Tables/Simple_alter_table

Just the development is more expensive than not :)
Post by Jaroslaw Staniek
Some of these features may have already been implemented in your later
versions, as in Ubuntu I cannot upgrade to later versions (fixing this is
also incredibly needed). I am running version 2.8.5, although I would love
to be able to upgrade if there were a reasonable way to do so.
Kexi 3 will be in separate repository and won't have too many
dependencies of KDE frameworks.
I do expect this will simplify preparation of binaries for most
popular OSes like Krita has, distributed alternatively. Maybe this
include some Linux packages -- contributions in this area is more than
welcome.

The goal is that user's will no longer be forced to stay with ancient
versions -- this isn't freedom :)
--
regards, Jaroslaw Staniek

KDE:
: A world-wide network of software engineers, artists, writers, translators
: and facilitators committed to Free Software development - http://kde.org
Calligra Suite:
: A graphic art and office suite - http://calligra.org
Kexi:
: A visual database apps builder - http://calligra.org/kexi
Qt Certified Specialist:
: http://www.linkedin.com/in/jstaniek
c***@isbd.net
2015-12-14 13:09:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jaroslaw Staniek
Post by c***@isbd.net
My fundamental requirement is soemthing like Access' table view that
allows very simple creation and updating of a table. I've yet to find
anything.
Yes, sometimes I am looking into ways to make Kexi even simpler to
use, so if user wants it - it can be in the middle between a
spreadsheet and a db creation app. Ad-hoc creating table designs
(while entering the data) is one of the things, quite hard to
implement though. Interesting, after the idea came MSA (maybe 2003?)
added similar feature.
But before it's reality we probably need to get reliable alter-table
feature to work.
My main reason for not persevering with Kexi (I did try it a while
ago) is that it is effectively proprietary in the way it uses
databases. You really can't share data between Kexi and other
applications. I have, for example, a lot of sqlite3 databases created
by a DokuWiki plugin. I'd love to be able to access and use them with
Kexi, but I can't. I could import them into Kexi but then the
Dokuwiki plugin could no longer access them.

Simply by making kexi databases have the unique .kexi suffix I believe
you are putting a lot of people off. If one could at least *read* a
Kexi database directly it would help.
Post by Jaroslaw Staniek
What exact features of simple table creation do you mean?
I want to be able to edit a table in place on a tabular form. Table
creation I am quite happy to do by other means, I just want simple,
straightforward data entry the way that Access does it by default.

Having created the table one is presented with a 'spreadsheet' form
where existing data is displayed (scrolling if required) and I can
edit existing entries directly and add new rows. By default Access
shows a 'new entry' blank line at the bottom of the table.

Editing entries needs to be very straightforward, just click on a
field and enter/delete text. No pop-up forms, double-clicks or
anything.
--
Chris Green
·
Jaroslaw Staniek
2015-12-14 13:46:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@isbd.net
Post by Jaroslaw Staniek
Post by c***@isbd.net
My fundamental requirement is soemthing like Access' table view that
allows very simple creation and updating of a table. I've yet to find
anything.
Yes, sometimes I am looking into ways to make Kexi even simpler to
use, so if user wants it - it can be in the middle between a
spreadsheet and a db creation app. Ad-hoc creating table designs
(while entering the data) is one of the things, quite hard to
implement though. Interesting, after the idea came MSA (maybe 2003?)
added similar feature.
But before it's reality we probably need to get reliable alter-table
feature to work.
My main reason for not persevering with Kexi (I did try it a while
ago) is that it is effectively proprietary in the way it uses
databases. You really can't share data between Kexi and other
applications. I have, for example, a lot of sqlite3 databases created
by a DokuWiki plugin. I'd love to be able to access and use them with
Kexi, but I can't. I could import them into Kexi but then the
Dokuwiki plugin could no longer access them.
Simply by making kexi databases have the unique .kexi suffix I believe
you are putting a lot of people off. If one could at least *read* a
Kexi database directly it would help.
Thanks for the notes Chris.

Agree here and this is planned as a major new feature of Kexi 3, and
has been discussed on the forum:
https://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?f=221&t=109559

(Note, the Predicate component is now called KDb)

Features such as importing SQLite filed won't be needed then:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=125843

Of course 'importing' server databases can be especially frustrating.
Post by c***@isbd.net
Post by Jaroslaw Staniek
What exact features of simple table creation do you mean?
I want to be able to edit a table in place on a tabular form. Table
creation I am quite happy to do by other means, I just want simple,
straightforward data entry the way that Access does it by default.
Having created the table one is presented with a 'spreadsheet' form
where existing data is displayed (scrolling if required) and I can
edit existing entries directly and add new rows. By default Access
shows a 'new entry' blank line at the bottom of the table.
Editing entries needs to be very straightforward, just click on a
field and enter/delete text. No pop-up forms, double-clicks or
anything.
That's the way of Kexi, right? Especially the "new record" line.
Kexi: